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Post by Kevin Weir on Mar 27, 2005 2:37:25 GMT -5
Tell me if I remember this incorrectly, but in years past, didn't Ken say if a pitcher does something that, while technically is a balk but no advantage was gained, that we don't call it? Situation: bases loaded, frosh game, coach yells at his pitcher to step off and the pitcher steps off with the wrong foot. NOBODY moved, no runner flinched, and only after the offensive coach thought for a second did he realize what happened. I kept silent, didn't call the "balk" because, in my mind, no advantage was gained, no play was being made, the kid just didn't think. What do you all think? If I get slapped down for this, I will learn and never let it go by again, but I recall Ken stating "no advantage, no balk" in situations such as this.
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Post by Vern Sterry on Mar 28, 2005 0:00:44 GMT -5
Yes, Ken did.
But, when do you make the choice to not enforce a rule?
NFHS - Rule (6-1-2) "With his feet in the wind-up positon, the pitcher may only delever a pitch or step backwards off the pitchers plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any infielder."
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Post by Kevin Weir on Mar 28, 2005 0:31:52 GMT -5
Vern, it's not that I "choose" to not call it; I just did not react correctly according to the rules. Thank you for the rule quote, that part is understood and there is/ was no debate about how the rule reads.
I was more interested in the thinking that goes on behind the grey area instead of the black and white. That's why I referred to what Ken talked about in the "advantage/ no advantage" idea. If that isn't part of my thinking in that split second, then, of course, I would have balked the pitcher. If you were on the field, you may have thought differently and reacted as such. If you WERE to make the decision, what would be your mindset to not call it, if you were not to call a balk? In what situation(s), if any, would you say to yourself "no advantage was gained, no call." That is what I wanted to hear about. Thank you.
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Post by Kevin Weir on Mar 28, 2005 0:39:46 GMT -5
Forgot to add this part: also, consider the level of play. In this case, it was a freshman game.
Vern, I know if you and I were doing a college game, there would be a balk called no doubt because the pitchers are expected to know what they are doing (and they are trying to get away with illegal moves in some cases). Even in a HS varsity contest, I would have balked the pitcher, same thing (he should know better). Step on to that frosh field and consider it from there. Thanks!
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Post by Vern Sterry on Mar 28, 2005 10:36:22 GMT -5
Kevin, I ask again.
When do you make the choice to enforce a rule or not?
If obstruction occurred on a play and you were the only one to see it, would you call it?
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Post by Kevin Weir on Mar 28, 2005 11:05:00 GMT -5
Vern, I answer you again, that is NOT what I wrote here to discuss! If you read my reply, I admitted the mistake of not calling the balk, that is clear. Mea culpa, my goal is to get every call ( be it a balk, ball, strike, obstruction or interference, whatever) right. In this case, I did not but it lead me to wonder about outside thinking of the black and white of the rulebook.
What I wanted would be a thought process, not to have you be scornful of my decision. If you wouldn't have considered the advantage/ disadvantage point and would have strictly called the balk, say so and leave it at that. But if you have part of your mindset that would like to share your thoughts in this case, feel free. That is what I want to hear about. Remember, I said the grey area of the job we do. Back away from the rule book and think if you would or wouldn't use it. If not, fine.
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Post by Varela on Mar 28, 2005 21:00:08 GMT -5
Can we all just get along  ;D Hey guys, what was his INTENT? I'd just thought I add a little fuel to fire!  . I would have just thrown the coach out for not coaching these kids right  . Joking aside gentlemen this forum is good, no? We can just let it all hang out(Jennings keep your mind out 'uv the gutter), and hopefully everybody(who has a computer) can get involve with all the knowledge there is to share.  |
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Post by Kevin Weir on Mar 29, 2005 0:42:43 GMT -5
Wonderful! John, that is what I should have said in the first place! The pitcher didn't intend to balk (heck, I didn't intend to miss it). I'll wait for anyone else's two bits. Thank you!
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Post by Varela on Mar 29, 2005 18:17:14 GMT -5
Who's John?  |
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Post by Kevin Weir on Mar 29, 2005 20:31:33 GMT -5
Sorry, Arturo, wrong name.
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Post by Mike Esquivel on May 12, 2005 13:31:46 GMT -5
Kevin,
You did what you had to do in that situation. I respect you for that. If the score was tied, I would have balked him if the home team was batting and the winning run was on 3rd. But, if the home team is winning and they are on the field, of course I wouldn't balk him.
Of course this only pertains to lower level games.
You can bend the rules a little bit and get away with it, as long as it is in your favor. This is my own opinon.
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Post by JT on May 12, 2005 21:08:38 GMT -5
Hey Mike, not to be rude, but when is it our intentions as umpires to rule a game over when we are supposed to enfore the rules with which the intent of the wording is to be. i know Ken said if no advantage was gained dont call it, but not to be rude it should be called at any level unless the umpire misses it. but i know for a fact that that is the first balk that any pitcher learns because it usually is the most obvious. but back to the point, at no time should an umpire try to gain advantage in favor of the umpire. if your going to call it for one team you better call it for the other team because thats chicken sh*t umpiring and that shows your just there for the checkl im sorry if this hurts you in any way but we are out there for a reason, and thats to enforce the letter of the rule book.
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Post by Kevin Weir on May 13, 2005 1:18:42 GMT -5
From the reactions I have seen and read from this, there is a definitive line drawn in the sand; either guys are with it or against it (the non-called balk). I think this is great in the matter that it has made me think through situations in each game since reading the conversations here. I am more aware now and, if that is the result, that is a good thing to happen. I hope each reader or reply writer has been more attune to possible situations, as well. JT said he hoped nobody got upset. Sometimes stepping on toes does the trick (see my conversation with Verne above for proof that it did for me!).
Am I more "trigger happy?" No, just more engaged in each game and that is good. I called one balk (going to the mouth on the mound) after I had told the catcher when the pitcher got real close to doing it. I walked a ball out to him in between innings to mention it and, when he proceeded to wipe his mouth and go right to the glove two batters into that inning, I nailed him for it. He still recoiled in horror that I had called it but, after I told the coach about the little warnings, the coach said to the pitcher "he told you, don't do it."
I'm glad this subject got some of us thinking and conversing. The more we learn from one another, the better we all become.
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Post by Mike Esquivel on Jun 23, 2005 11:03:26 GMT -5
JT, If you had any common sense, you would do the same thing. I could call a balk or not call a balk. It depends on what team is out there. If you had both team just playing around and didn't respect the game of baseball and one team is way ahead of the other and both teams didn't care, I would do whatever it takes. I didn't appreciated when you made a ridicules comment saying that I am there for the check.
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Post by JT on Jun 28, 2005 14:33:50 GMT -5
You know Mike i feel bad if you are truly insulted but the fact that you would bend rules in favor of yourself is ridiculous. ive never worked with you, and you might be a good umpire. but the fact that you would take a game and play it in favor of yourself is truly not right. if i have learned anything from umpiring its just to call the game the way you see it. dont cheat another team just play the game the way it should be played. and if you have teams that dont care and are just screwing around maybe that reflects on the umpire for letting the game get out of control. Umpiring is a reaction not a thought. thinking is what you do when you are put in tough situations, but reacting is showing that you have a great knowledge of how to inforce the rules without thinking. Now as to you stating that i dont have any common sense, well maybe thats true and maybe its not. i dont know. but i guarentee you that if you need a partner in the future i will be the best partner for you for that game. i didnt mean you personally are there just for a check, but you know that there are some umpires out there that are. and if you want to dislike me for just saying the truth go ahead, but i promise ill still go out every game i do and start it with the same 100 percent that i started it with, no matter what happens during the game and i wont worry about who likes me and doesnt like me. Its only baseball.
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;D
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